View Full Version : Natural Birth campaigners make mothers who have Caesareans feel like failures?
MrsBanks
21-02-11, 09:37 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1358891/Kirstie-Allsopp-blasts-natural-birth-experts-Twitter.htmlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1358891/Kirstie-Allsopp-blasts-natural-birth-experts-Twitter.html
Kirstie Allsopp has launched a scathing attack on natural childbirth experts, accusing them of ‘stigmatising’ women who have Caesareans.
The TV presenter – whose two sons were delivered by C-section – claimed that she and thousands of other mothers were being made to feel a ’failure’.
Do you think natural birth campaigners are unsympathetic towards women who have a CS by circumstance or choice?
I would say in a way yes. I felt like a utter failure to the point i ended up having nightmares for about a year. Only when i had ds3 did i feel complete i know that sounds mad, but i felt i had failed not only me but my son ds2. They say that children can be damaged by cs, or from being taken away from mother after birth. I didn't meet ds2 until 2 hours after he was born. I would worry myself sick that i had damaged him because my body failed.
MrsBanks
21-02-11, 09:56 AM
Kirstie Allsopp is suggesting that birth preparation classes should spend more time discussing caesareans, do you think more preparation would have helped you feel better post birth or is it just something that is traumatic when it happens as an emergency? Just pondering as I have never had one myself and can only imagine that I would be extremely scared if one became necessary for me during labour.
Yes i think there should be more done to prepare for it. You don' expect it to happen to you. Neither did i know anyone who had one. I also was a crash, me and my partner didn't have a clue what was going on. I just got G/A and that was it. So it would have been really scary but if i knew what could happen before hand it might have helped more ifswim.
Yes normal birth is better, but things happen wether that because you went into hospital (Again is it my fault then i ended up with a crash c/s because i went into hospital) or because you choose to have a cs, we always talk about informed choice when it comes to people wanting home births after csection. But what about these people who want a c/s, you don't see many people standing up for them. C/s also need to be normalized as much as we can make that happen.
Just as with any group of people, I'm sure there are a few jerks who have made insensitive comments but I really think they are not great in number. I've not once heard a 'natural birth campaigner' berate a woman for having a c-section, whether by her own choice or upon medical advice (though have read some nasty comments on Daily Mail articles and the like -- people are nastier online than to a person's face).
The only thing I have seen is someone question whether the c-section was actually necessary or may have been recommended based on outdated or non-existent evidence, or because a string of interventions led to it. Even then, I think there is an incredibly fine line between gently prompting a woman to investigate whether she could have birthed vaginally if x, y or z had been done differently and using her personal experience to make a political point. The latter is what gets up people's noses and makes them feel attacked. So, really, it's not much use talking about what might have been if the woman in question has no interest in exploring that. What is needed is better antenatal education and a more hands-off, physiological approach to birth so that fewer caesareans are performed in the first place.
I think also that, occasionally, some (not all!) of the women who feel 'attacked' or 'stigmatised' are self-projecting in order to protect themselves. For some, even contemplating that the caesarean they underwent could have been anything other than life-saving and necessary is unfathomable because they have unwavering trust in the medical establishment. To hear/read that a different outcome may have been possible can cause feelings of inadequacy, guilt or anger towards those who did have natural births or who advocate for them, including the NCT.
It's a shame really, to have these 'sides' because we all want the same thing: for women to have choices, be respected and given the best advice possible.
Unregistered
21-02-11, 04:03 PM
I think some woman protesting for "natural birth rights for the mother " can be a bit strident and make cs mothers feel like a failure yes... i think the main fact has been forgotten as to why cs are carried out in the first place, that is to deliver a live healthy baby to a live healthy mum!! any one who had enjured a long and painful labour only for it to result in a cs are not failures quite the opposite as they have put their own personal preferences asside to take advantage of the marvelous work the people in obstetric do and chose to have a healthy live baby. the first choice for every woman would be to have a natural vaginal birth but this is not always possible and we should be applauding these women instead of making them feel like they have failed in some way, what do these campainer want ?? for the child to remain inside and die and for the mother to die also ?? i think not i do think different approaches in pre natal care are required and mothers to be should be given more "medical " knowledge prior to birth as was said before it wouldnt be such a trauma or a taboo if cs were normalised !! obviously i have been there and got the two healthy children which i would otherwise not have had so feel strongly about this issue and i get just as incensed by the "designer" cs births because a woman is simply too posh to push. we are all women wanting the same thing ,a healthy baby, so we need to stick together and congratulate each other when we have created a mirical which is life x
cscmadwife
21-02-11, 06:45 PM
I think also that, occasionally, some (not all!) of the women who feel 'attacked' or 'stigmatised' are self-projecting in order to protect themselves. For some, even contemplating that the caesarean they underwent could have been anything other than life-saving and necessary is unfathomable because they have unwavering trust in the medical establishment. To hear/read that a different outcome may have been possible can cause feelings of inadequacy, guilt or anger towards those who did have natural births or who advocate for them, including the NCT.
I agree. Reminds me of the so called debate about bf - those who are most voiciferous tend to be those who consider they personally failed at bf, and want to blame bf supporters for the way they feel (eg Dr Ellie Lee).
I've been two 2 sets of NCT classes - once as an expectant mum, once as a birth partner. The first ones the tutor was trying to get us to think about how we may feel. The rest of the group were exploring how upset / disappointed they would feel. I said I may be really relieved / pleased that me / my baby had been saved. The tutor was really trying to get the group to see this. Think its a case of people not hearing what they don't want to hear, then being angry for not listening.
i do think different approaches in pre natal care are required and mothers to be should be given more "medical " knowledge prior to birth as was said before it wouldnt be such a trauma or a taboo if cs were normalised !!
I don't think c-sections should be normalised as however you look at them they arn't, a c-section is a method of birth when there is deviation from normality. Ifyswim?
I do however think that c-sections shouldn't have a stigma attached to them, at the end of the day having a c-section can be life saving to mother and baby depending upon circumstances.
I do think having a c-section due to 'failure to progress' and such like feeble excuses should be relooked at and other things tried first. I
I think that no one should be allowed to choose a c-section if there is NO medical indication to do so. Just my opinion.
I had a c-section my self due to 'failure to progress' and feel a failure.. I do I don't feel like I gave birth!
I don't think c-sections should be normalised as however you look at them they arn't, a c-section is a method of birth when there is deviation from normality. Ifyswim? !
Yes but it's still a form of delivery wether it was "normal or not" I when I mean normalised as in skin to skin after baby born, music in theatre etc If it's going to happen it will happen, but trying to make it more better for women to deal with the better. It's a part of a women life they will never forget ever wether c/s or not.
Also why shouldn't a women choose to have a c/s ? If it's there informed choice ?
I know I wouldn't have chosen that personal but I "fought" very hard for my personal choices and they didn't want to know about my informed choices I was making.
Where's the difference from a women making a informed choice over a home birth if they were high risk ? Or a women making a informed choice over having a c/s ?
Playing devil advocate here lol
I think choosing to have a c-section just because you 'fancy' having one isn't a informed choice. It's major surgery and if you were fully informed I can't help but doubt that you would choose to have a c-section if there was NO medical indication to do so.
Hmm I dunno.. I'm thinking.
I think choosing to have a c-section just because you 'fancy' having one isn't a informed choice. It's major surgery and if you were fully informed I can't help but doubt that you would choose to have a c-section if there was NO medical indication to do so.
Hmm I dunno.. I'm thinking.
Would that Inc women who have a 2nd or 3rd c/s ?
Hmm I think I'm probably being narrow minded, I think it's because I've had a negative experience with a c-section. I suppose I just don't 'get' why anyone would specifically choose it if they didn't have too.
Being cut open, the scar, longer recovery time plus the numerous other risks which come with it.
I suppose I don't 'get it'...
Would that Inc women who have a 2nd or 3rd c/s ?
See I don't know, that depends on what the 1st section was for and weighing up the risks of vbac over an elective etc, so I'm not sure.
MrsBanks
21-02-11, 09:53 PM
Personally I have spent a long time arguing for women to have choices over their own body. A CS with no medical indication would be my idea of a nightmare, but vaginal birth of twins with no doctors present would be a nightmare for a lot more women, yet I still got to choose it. There are lots of reasons why someone would want a CS. Lack of contractions, the ability to plan their week around the birth of their baby, preserving their vagina, tummy tuck at the same time, etc etc. I know there are a multitude of risks too but the benefit of choice is we get to weigh up risks vs benefits according to which is more important to us.
I see CS for personal reasons as similar to intentional freebirth. Inherently risky for different reasons, but as long as the women is informed as to the risks she is taking then I think she should get the choice. Of course when money comes into it I don't think a woman should be able to choose a CS in a public medical system, but if she is paying for it herself then fair play to her.
Personally I have spent a long time arguing for women to have choices over their own body. A CS with no medical indication would be my idea of a nightmare, but vaginal birth of twins with no doctors present would be a nightmare for a lot more women, yet I still got to choose it. There are lots of reasons why someone would want a CS. Lack of contractions, the ability to plan their week around the birth of their baby, preserving their vagina, tummy tuck at the same time, etc etc. I know there are a multitude of risks too but the benefit of choice is we get to weigh up risks vs benefits according to which is more important to us.
I see CS for personal reasons as similar to intentional freebirth. Inherently risky for different reasons, but as long as the women is informed as to the risks she is taking then I think she should get the choice. Of course when money comes into it I don't think a woman should be able to choose a CS in a public medical system, but if she is paying for it herself then fair play to her.
When you put it like that then yes its a choice and a women should be able to choose.
I'm tainted lol, it's amazing how your own experiences can affect how you view things. One thing i love about discussing it, you get to see different view points!
My view on Kirsty's rant is on my blog if you're interested:
http://www.thesingingdoula.blogspot.com
:)
I recently had a client choose a c-section not for medical reasons but for psychological ones. I'm sure to an outsider not knowing her situation it would look like she was being 'too posh to push' but there were deep-seated fears and phobias going on that made it the best choice for her. Just because there is not a physical/medical reason doesn't mean it's not still an entirely valid choice. Many women are so terrified of childbirth that they have actually been diagnosed with tokophobia, or some may be sexual abuse survivors. There are a lot of complex reasons for choosing c-section.
Amity I was so focused on the medical need of having a c-section that I didn't even think about the psychological side of things.
Thanks
Delilah
22-02-11, 08:04 AM
Tocophobia is an area of great debate. I do think we should discuss everything antenatally, there are things like a 'natural' CS, getting a good (well at least open minded!) consultant and discussing these options and also perhaps we should discuss assisted delivery too? What about the Martindale manoeuvre? If women were informed perhaps their own decisions would be altered?
MrsBanks
22-02-11, 08:07 AM
what's the martindale manoeuvre?
Delilah
22-02-11, 08:08 AM
A forceps off the bed. I'l try and find a better description!
crossfire
22-02-11, 06:40 PM
My view on Kirsty's rant is on my blog if you're interested:
http://www.thesingingdoula.blogspot.com
:)
Ah but this article in the paper was taken from her discussion with belinda phipps on twitter a couple of days beforehand. I follow both of them and saw the "rants" from both sides as they happened. The paper has not put all the facts of the rant in. I thought it was quite a good discussion on how the lack of information about a cs in antenatal classes can lead to serious postnatal mental illness. If you haven't even considered that a cs is a possiblity for your birth, to end up having one can cause upset that is longer lasting and deeper than midwives will ever know. Kirstie was saying that all antenatal classes should cover a cs. That is all. And the women that were tweeting kirstie were telling her this. I think she was horrified at the effects an unexpected cs had on the mothers that tweeted her, which being self selected probably give a more biased view. And perhaps saying that women who have a cs are stigmatisied.. that was not kirstie's comment that was from one the women talking to her. It may not be other mothers doing it to the woman who has had a cs but that mother doing it to herself, because she feels she failed. And no matter how people tell someone who had a cs they are not a failure, if it was unexpected and unconsidered as an outcome then the women quite often do. I have sat by enough beds of crying women who feel like its the end of the world for not having had a vaginal delivery. It's heartbreaking. Kirstie has a very valid point.
And froma personal perspective, I remember asking the parentcraft midwife at the hospital for info on a cs becuase there was something lurking at the back of my head. Midwife said in a couple of weeks, 31 weeks was too early. 5 days later my baby was born and yes it was quite the biggest shock to my entire being I have ever had. And mentally I am probably still not ok. Oh the birth stuff is sorted no probs there but the issues relating from pnd have been long lasting.
I don't dispute that at all.
I do dispute the points that:
A) The NCT classes don't cover enough about sections. This isn't neccessarily true at all. Plus, exactly how much info is included on sections would depend on the parents attending an NCT class as, following adult learning principles, class attendees often determine course content for themselves. I find it odd that a woman of Kirsty's intelligence expects to be spoon-fed information with regard to her own pregnancies and births. But if the reports of how she just sucked up the mis-information on uterine rupture rates are true, then I'm not surprised.
B) The NCT encourages women to ignore medical advice.
Also, this whole thing about why our section rate is not decreasing was the other issue I was addressing. If we actually did something about that, we'd have a lot less women being devastated about having a section in the first place, particularly as a proportion of those sections may not have been neccessary at all.
crossfire
23-02-11, 08:21 AM
I think the content of nct classes varies enormously depending on the teacher/course leader and the people attending the course. Not everyone does want to know about them. Many do. I shadowed a nct teacher who was brilliant and she did cover cs in detail, acting it out with people. I appreciate not every class gets that. NHS classes, especially the local ones do not cover it. Until I became a midwife I had never heard of uterine rupture. If a doctor had told me that I would definitely rupture I think it may sway my thinking too. Also we don't have any idea of what sort of scar she had from her first section, it may not have been the lower segment incision that is usual.
In the tweets I don't think that Kirstie ever made reference to nct encouraging women to ignore medical advice. If comments like that had been made thn it may have been the odd class leader who put things in a misleading way. Or someone who wanted things one way and used any means to get that, saying that so and so said this was how it should be, or told me to.
Kirstie like a lot of mums is not that interested in the medical detail of pregnancy and birth and is focussed on a safe outcome for her children. HAving had one emergency section, she listened to what the doctors told her. It is still the case, like it or not that women take every word that an obstetrician says and as gospel and goes along with it. No arguments. I don't like that anymore than you. But, that is how it is for at least 75% of women I have met. I was guilty of the same with my first, because at that time I didn't know and understand what was occurring. I trusted the medics and most of the midwives I met. By the time I had no3 I was a lot more cynical. But many women are not. They want a healthy baby and will choose what for them is the safest way, whether that is doing loads of research and making up their own minds or going along with what the doctors and midwives do or don't say.
Now you and I both know that many cs are unnecessary and I have done my best to prevent a few I can tell you, but the bottom line is, that if a doctor tells a woman she needs one (and they do as you are well aware) then most women will go along with it. Whilst we have cnst and an obstetric led system the cs rate is not going to reduce, especially considering the state of maternity services at the moment with midwives not being able to support one-one.
With respect, it is possible to reduce CS rates. In Abertawe Bro Morgannwg Local Health Board that's exactly what is happening.
Having made a huge attitude shift and focusing on woman centred care, the midwives in my LHB are working their backsides off to get the majority of women one to one care and the section rate is slowly decreasing. It can be done and I have the greatest respect and admiration for the MWs with whom I work.
I agree with what you're saying about women's attitudes to pregnancy and birth. But then that's how any 'ordinary' person is encouraged to view health care. We, as a society, created the monster, as it were. If women don't question care providers it's because, as a society, the view is that one doesn't do that. For many women I speak to, it isn't just that they may not be motivated to question or change the care they receive, it's that they simply don't know it's even possible.
I think if that changed, we'd see a very different maternity service that would be driven to change by its clients insisting on bettter resourcing and staffing and improved choices for themselves and their babies.
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